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	Comments on: When Safety features may make a sailing dinghy less safe, the RAID41	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Michael Storer		</title>
		<link>https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat-design/the-raid41-distance-cruising-racing-dinghy-discontinued/#comment-10198</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Storer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2020 04:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.storerboatplans.com/?p=19178#comment-10198</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat-design/the-raid41-distance-cruising-racing-dinghy-discontinued/#comment-10196&quot;&gt;Tom Edom&lt;/a&gt;.

Great and considered piece of writing Tom!

The only thing I would add, is while we might judge a boats righting from capsize as an explored territory, many people who build their own boat and many second hand buyers haven&#039;t done much sailing.

If the boat capsizes they probably end up in a pile in the water and are not quite sure what to do.

This can mean a boat which an experienced sailor has little trouble with has time to turn turtle, making righting the boat a big (and dangerous in some cases) energy suck.

I agree with every one of your points by the way.

But, given that a particular boat can be self recovered, the weakest link is the experience of the sailor. 

And the strongest message is to build that experience with specific capsize practice - with onshore winds, deep enough for no standing up and the boat not tethered to anything. In other words a real capsize situation.

And not just once.

Different boats have such different behaviours that it is a very necessary step. An experienced sailor has very little fear of capsize if the weather is not too dodgy and on sailing a new type of boat with an unfamiliar setup would probably be tempted to do a trial capsize.

I wasn&#039;t able to find a photo of the Claridge boarding ladder on his website. I would be very interested to see.

Several of our Oz Goose sailors are disabled. One of the leg amputees found she was unable to get aboard. So she spent an afternoon doing a trial to find the length of a rope loop attached to the rear toestrap fitting (just inside the transom) to enable her to get aboard reliably.

This is the type of attitude that keeps people safe.

Thanks again for the excellent points you went through Tom!

MIK]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat-design/the-raid41-distance-cruising-racing-dinghy-discontinued/#comment-10196">Tom Edom</a>.</p>
<p>Great and considered piece of writing Tom!</p>
<p>The only thing I would add, is while we might judge a boats righting from capsize as an explored territory, many people who build their own boat and many second hand buyers haven&#8217;t done much sailing.</p>
<p>If the boat capsizes they probably end up in a pile in the water and are not quite sure what to do.</p>
<p>This can mean a boat which an experienced sailor has little trouble with has time to turn turtle, making righting the boat a big (and dangerous in some cases) energy suck.</p>
<p>I agree with every one of your points by the way.</p>
<p>But, given that a particular boat can be self recovered, the weakest link is the experience of the sailor. </p>
<p>And the strongest message is to build that experience with specific capsize practice &#8211; with onshore winds, deep enough for no standing up and the boat not tethered to anything. In other words a real capsize situation.</p>
<p>And not just once.</p>
<p>Different boats have such different behaviours that it is a very necessary step. An experienced sailor has very little fear of capsize if the weather is not too dodgy and on sailing a new type of boat with an unfamiliar setup would probably be tempted to do a trial capsize.</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t able to find a photo of the Claridge boarding ladder on his website. I would be very interested to see.</p>
<p>Several of our Oz Goose sailors are disabled. One of the leg amputees found she was unable to get aboard. So she spent an afternoon doing a trial to find the length of a rope loop attached to the rear toestrap fitting (just inside the transom) to enable her to get aboard reliably.</p>
<p>This is the type of attitude that keeps people safe.</p>
<p>Thanks again for the excellent points you went through Tom!</p>
<p>MIK</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
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		<title>
		By: Tom Edom		</title>
		<link>https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat-design/the-raid41-distance-cruising-racing-dinghy-discontinued/#comment-10196</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Edom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2020 15:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.storerboatplans.com/?p=19178#comment-10196</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Micheal, this is an interesting article. Sorry the design hasn&#039;t come out as hoped yet.
I used to race:

1/ OK Dinghy (Knud Olsen) has a HUGE foredeck tank and a smaller aft tank, short cockpit. Floats high when capsised. In my day had a wooden, mast so not too quick to invert.
2/ Solo dinghy (Jack Holt). Smallish foredeck tank with modest side tanks. I dont remember problems getting it up again
3/ Laser is one big tank except for a small bathtub serving as a cockpit. with modest beam it floats high but not too high to reach from the water. Has been known to blow off downwind and leave the skipper to the ocean but to be fair, there are so many of them out there it would be strange if there were not the odd accident.
4/ National 12  restricted development class (UK. All the great UK designers have had a go). This mandates three separate units of bouyancy and a test to support the crew with one of those flooded. They are now all self draining (the earliest self draining design was called &#039;Soap Dish&#039; for good reason) but used to have three bouyancy bags, then 3 sealed tanks. Surprisingly little raise of floor is needed to achieve free drainage of capsize water if the transom is open.

What these all have in common is that they are RACING BOATS and are intended to be raced round a course with safety boats in attendence. They are more or less &#039;safe&#039; in that context.

Folk who build their own boats and go sailing outside the safety cover of organised racing or who race over longer distances, need to work out how to set up themselves and their boat to rescue themselves. I would suggest as topics for thought:
Most mere mortals need a design which does not need constant attention to stay upright; sailing small boats is fatiguing.
The ability to reduce sail appropriate to the conditions.

Bouyancy built and arranged so that in the limit the boat will float invered with the crew on top. Bouyancy built in MUST BE STRESS TESTED. A sinking ship blowing bubbles is not a good place to be.

Often, waves are a contributary factor to a cruising capsize and there is some experience to suggest that normal bouyancy tanks don&#039;t behave the same in waves as they do in calm water. More research needed.

Man Over Board MOB can happen all too easily through toe strap failure, loss of balance due to fatigue, accidental gybe, being cocky.... It is vital that there is reliable way of getting back in the boat so....
Low freeboard (as you say above).
Or a &#039;boarding ladder&#039; which can be a slack rope between fore and aft that you can reach in and grab and is sized so you have a convenient height step; it can be &#039;bungeed&#039; to lie inder the gun&#039;le; a styrup to grab and step on, either side on an adjustable line is what John Claridge recommends for the Lymington Scow which is high sided and tends to be sailed by less fit/more mature folk. http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/Scow and look at the pricelist. I&#039;ve got photos is you&#039;re interested.
Some have a boarding step on their rudder or a pull down styrup at the transom but I fear the boat sailing off downwind with the skipper as a drogue hanging on behind.

Your comments about water ballast are very interesting. There is a real step between unballasted and ballasted dinghy. Self righting may sound  attractive but a boat on its side, which has modest bouyancy, will just sit and wait for the crew. The self righting boat may do its thing without the skipper being in contact with the boat....Maybe a safety harness and line becomes sensible in that case because MOB has become as dangerous as on a yacht.

[ You mention about floor height, freeboard and rowing geometry in your comments about the Raid 41. Would it help to have a footwell in the floor, not self draining, with a hatch to fill it in for sailing &#038; sleeping?]

Anyway, in my opinion there is not nearly enough experiment, test, discussion and understanding in the area of capsize recovery as there is in other areas; performance, for example or simplicity of build.
Cheers. Keep up the good work.

Tom]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Micheal, this is an interesting article. Sorry the design hasn&#8217;t come out as hoped yet.<br />
I used to race:</p>
<p>1/ OK Dinghy (Knud Olsen) has a HUGE foredeck tank and a smaller aft tank, short cockpit. Floats high when capsised. In my day had a wooden, mast so not too quick to invert.<br />
2/ Solo dinghy (Jack Holt). Smallish foredeck tank with modest side tanks. I dont remember problems getting it up again<br />
3/ Laser is one big tank except for a small bathtub serving as a cockpit. with modest beam it floats high but not too high to reach from the water. Has been known to blow off downwind and leave the skipper to the ocean but to be fair, there are so many of them out there it would be strange if there were not the odd accident.<br />
4/ National 12  restricted development class (UK. All the great UK designers have had a go). This mandates three separate units of bouyancy and a test to support the crew with one of those flooded. They are now all self draining (the earliest self draining design was called &#8216;Soap Dish&#8217; for good reason) but used to have three bouyancy bags, then 3 sealed tanks. Surprisingly little raise of floor is needed to achieve free drainage of capsize water if the transom is open.</p>
<p>What these all have in common is that they are RACING BOATS and are intended to be raced round a course with safety boats in attendence. They are more or less &#8216;safe&#8217; in that context.</p>
<p>Folk who build their own boats and go sailing outside the safety cover of organised racing or who race over longer distances, need to work out how to set up themselves and their boat to rescue themselves. I would suggest as topics for thought:<br />
Most mere mortals need a design which does not need constant attention to stay upright; sailing small boats is fatiguing.<br />
The ability to reduce sail appropriate to the conditions.</p>
<p>Bouyancy built and arranged so that in the limit the boat will float invered with the crew on top. Bouyancy built in MUST BE STRESS TESTED. A sinking ship blowing bubbles is not a good place to be.</p>
<p>Often, waves are a contributary factor to a cruising capsize and there is some experience to suggest that normal bouyancy tanks don&#8217;t behave the same in waves as they do in calm water. More research needed.</p>
<p>Man Over Board MOB can happen all too easily through toe strap failure, loss of balance due to fatigue, accidental gybe, being cocky&#8230;. It is vital that there is reliable way of getting back in the boat so&#8230;.<br />
Low freeboard (as you say above).<br />
Or a &#8216;boarding ladder&#8217; which can be a slack rope between fore and aft that you can reach in and grab and is sized so you have a convenient height step; it can be &#8216;bungeed&#8217; to lie inder the gun&#8217;le; a styrup to grab and step on, either side on an adjustable line is what John Claridge recommends for the Lymington Scow which is high sided and tends to be sailed by less fit/more mature folk. <a href="http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/Scow" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/Scow</a> and look at the pricelist. I&#8217;ve got photos is you&#8217;re interested.<br />
Some have a boarding step on their rudder or a pull down styrup at the transom but I fear the boat sailing off downwind with the skipper as a drogue hanging on behind.</p>
<p>Your comments about water ballast are very interesting. There is a real step between unballasted and ballasted dinghy. Self righting may sound  attractive but a boat on its side, which has modest bouyancy, will just sit and wait for the crew. The self righting boat may do its thing without the skipper being in contact with the boat&#8230;.Maybe a safety harness and line becomes sensible in that case because MOB has become as dangerous as on a yacht.</p>
<p>[ You mention about floor height, freeboard and rowing geometry in your comments about the Raid 41. Would it help to have a footwell in the floor, not self draining, with a hatch to fill it in for sailing &amp; sleeping?]</p>
<p>Anyway, in my opinion there is not nearly enough experiment, test, discussion and understanding in the area of capsize recovery as there is in other areas; performance, for example or simplicity of build.<br />
Cheers. Keep up the good work.</p>
<p>Tom</p>
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